John, check the backup logs on the server to see what was going on at the time the files were modified. From everything I've seen and tested, you do not need to worry about getting those updated files backed up every few hours, the daily snapshots should work fine.

_________________
Alex Kuretz
Remote Notification: Monitoring and alerting for your Home Server via email, Twitter, text message, RSS, push notifications, and on your Mac desktop
Have you tried our Add-Ins? If so, be sure to Rate them at WeGotServed.

Alex: Thanks for your response.

There is an unbelievable amount of activity going on in that log! Seems to be particularly active each time the backup service is stopped and restarted. Lots of "Checker: ...." activity so it does seem to check that the files are still valid/consistent -- or at least verifying an index (which is good).

It does, occasionally, log that it has replaced some files (probably the ones I see changed) but I cannot read the "why". It may have an explanation for someone familiar with the log but (at first glance) it's Greek. If I were to take the time to really study it, maybe...

I think we would have to know the reason for the re-writes in order to know how sensitive a restore is to the changes in the files (of which I see none on a cursory visual scan).

Want me to PM you yesterday's log? Or you can probably re-create this by turning the backup service off and back on again a few seconds later.

_________________
....JBick

EX475, 2 GB, LE-1640
PC1: Vista-->W7 Ultimate/32, (D-Drive RAID-5 Array)
PC2: Lenovo Laptop, Win XP Home SP3
2xLinksys WRT54G v1.1 and 2xNetGear GS105 Gbit switch

To be honest, I'm less worried about the "why" for rewriting the files since I've not heard of any failures restoring a BDBB backup. And restarting the service is not the same as seeing what it is doing when it rewrites those few files during the day.

_________________
Alex Kuretz
Remote Notification: Monitoring and alerting for your Home Server via email, Twitter, text message, RSS, push notifications, and on your Mac desktop
Have you tried our Add-Ins? If so, be sure to Rate them at WeGotServed.

I use something similar to post #1 but I don't stop the drive services, instead... I copy directly from the shares.

I have a .bat file that I execute on a schedule.

I had also tried not turning off the backup service when doing the WHS backup but found that if a user attempted to use the backup service while the database was being backed up there were major problems with the result. Works fine as long as no one uses it when the script is running.

I preferred the safety of turning it off.

_________________
....JBick

EX475, 2 GB, LE-1640
PC1: Vista-->W7 Ultimate/32, (D-Drive RAID-5 Array)
PC2: Lenovo Laptop, Win XP Home SP3
2xLinksys WRT54G v1.1 and 2xNetGear GS105 Gbit switch

This script doesn't backup the backups... just the shares.

I recently picked up a Seagate FreeAgent Desk external USB drive to share some photos from vacation with friends. When I opened the box, I discovered that it has a built-in backup utility called Seagate Manager, which allows for scheduled backups of the drives on the PC that it is installed on. It automatically discovered the C drive of the WHS and I've executed a backup and ascertained that the backup can be restored. It did not select the D drive but I'm pretty confident that it can use the shared drives as I've manually copied some of the share contents to the USB drive and the data is good.

Are there any drawbacks to using this type of backup solution to automate the server backups, assuming that I ignore the drive extender files? I'm looking to back up the OS and the shares first, and maybe use this to perform the BDBB backups at a later date, but this bypasses WHS for backing up the C drive and the shares. Will this cause me issues with data integrity on my WHS?

Thanks!

Jim

_________________
EX475 2GB memory
Stock Processor
1 2TB HP Personal Media Drive via USB
1 2.0TB Barracuda® XT 7200 rpm drive
2 1.5TB Seagate Barracuda® XT SATA 7200 rpm drives
1 0.5TB stock drive shipped with MSS
Running HP 3.0 updated software

Yes there are great disadvantages... If you want a good backup of your server OS use software like Acronis True Image Echo Server or the newer version Acronis® Backup & Recovery™ 10 Server for Windows

Hi Jim... Welcome to the forum just in case someone hasn't done that yet. I'm glad you are here.

It would be very interesting if you were successful at backing up and restoring the MSS's System drive (C:). I have not heard of anyone successfully doing that yet. Please tell us more about that. I have heard that some people tried doing this using Acronis True Image but with only limited success I believe. If you are able to successfully back up the server system drive and restore it successfully, I am sure there will be lots of people interested in that on this forum.
Edit: bruceleeon, you were posting as I wrote my reply. Good to hear you have used True Image successfully to backup the server C: Drive. Is there a thread on this fourm where you were discussing you success with doin that? I would like to read it. Don't take what I say the wrong way. If you have done that great. I would like to read about it.

It is well known you can copy share folder data to a usb drive attached to the server. For instance the main subject of this thread is discussing doing just that. I am sure JohnBick will have some comments to make in response to your post above, so I will let John address you questions generally, but I will address one misconception its seems to me (at least on the surface) that you have. You know that when you do anything with the share folders that is in WHS's Drive Extender's (DE) domain.

It is my understanding that DE works only within the share folders on the D: Drive. When you said you were going to start with backing up the OS and shares at first but would not be workig with anything that DE works with, that implied to me that you did not know the shares were maintained by DE? I could have misunderstood what you said... just wondered if you knew the shares are maintianied with DE. It's ok, btw, to copy files form the share folders. That is not in question.

Also you should be able to use whatever method of copying share folders you would like and the restores from that "copy" should be fine. The backup database is another question. As long as you stop the drive letter and backup services before you backup the backup database, copy the approprpiate files, and then turn both services back on, you should be able to copy the backup database successfully (and then restore it if you need to).

Again, I believe you could use any utiltiy to copy that you wish, but if you want to automate the process and schedule it the backup utility you use to backup the backup database would need to have a command line interface, because you have to make sure the drive letter and backup services are turned off.... and then back on after the copy is completed.

If you don't need to automate the backup of the BDBB, you could:
1. manually turn off the services
2. Run you backup utiltiy copying the backup database files and then
3. When the utility is finished manually turn the services back on.

It's my opinion that you should be able to do the above while maintaining data intregrity on you backup database.

I don't know if I answered the all the questions you have. If not, maybe John (or others) will elaborate on what I have said. Or you can post back with additional questions, of course.
George

_________________
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
Aristotle - Greek critic, philosopher, physicist, & zoologist (384 BC - 322 BC)

Sorry ... Missed that since the usual focus here is on backing up the backups...

There is no need to turn off the backup if only backing up the shares.

_________________
....JBick

EX475, 2 GB, LE-1640
PC1: Vista-->W7 Ultimate/32, (D-Drive RAID-5 Array)
PC2: Lenovo Laptop, Win XP Home SP3
2xLinksys WRT54G v1.1 and 2xNetGear GS105 Gbit switch

Searay thanks for the information. My comment on DE/shares was that I was able to copy the folders names Shares on the D drive ok, but I understand that there are technical issues that prevent a straight copy of the folders that I associate with DE. In other words, the data in D:\Shares is copyable, and the other data on D, which I assumed was being managed by DE directly, can't really be backed up. Sorry if I was a little imprecise technically.

I'll try and do a full restore of the C drive data backup tomorrow and will report results. I was able to browse the files, but if you tell me that this has been an issue, I'll try a restore to see if it works in detail and will report back.

I understand that the backup databases are another issue and am planning on tackling that next...but there seems to be PLENTY of good documentation on doing that so I'm not as worried about figuring that out.

Appreicate the response and thanks for the welcome!

Jim

_________________
EX475 2GB memory
Stock Processor
1 2TB HP Personal Media Drive via USB
1 2.0TB Barracuda® XT 7200 rpm drive
2 1.5TB Seagate Barracuda® XT SATA 7200 rpm drives
1 0.5TB stock drive shipped with MSS
Running HP 3.0 updated software

Well, Jim, I caution you about bruceleeon's advice. He's a newbie here and, while he's made a very large number of posts here today, he really does not have a " track record" here yet. More importantly he is giving advice without any reason for the advice. And the advice he is giving i, frankly, contrary to the general opinions espoused on the WHS sites.

First, if a backup of the C-Drive can be obtained, will restoring that a day later work? We have seen a number of users (since back in the WHS beta days) back up the C-Drive with Acronis and other utilities, immediately restore it, and claim success. (I believe I was one of them.) But the real test comes a couple hours/minutes/days/months later when the data in the "pool" has changed and the THEN the C-Drive is restored. The results then are decidedly different and generally not totally successful. Sometimes folks get it working afterward but rarely do they believe they saved any time as compared to a Server Restore, aka, Server Reinstallation. I do not know of anyone doing backups of the C-Drive who have continued to do so after trying to restore it a day or so later. I DO know of a couple folks who have successfully backed up both the C-Drive AND the data at the same time (with NO data access or balancing in between) and seem to be able to repeat it. The problem seems to be having them in sync.

Secondly, is Acronis any better FOR THIS VERY SPECIFIC PURPOSE than any similar utility such as the one you are trying? I doubt it, especially if you have actually done a restore. Bruceleeon provides no explanation, saying only "If you want a good backup of your server OS use software like ..." Around here we generally see statements like that backed up with some substantiation. There is none.

Where to go? Try it. Back up the C-Drive and, a week later, restore the C-Drive (without restoring any data) and see if it works.

And keep us posted, please. We are ALL looking for a reliable way to quickly recover a C-Drive with all our updates, configurations, Add-Ins, etc. No one has found a reliable solution yet -- you may be the first!

George: I don't believe that bruceleeon even says he's actually done this... And I think your response is making a bunch of other assumptions.

Bruceleeon: If you have done this and have something to back up your general statement above please do enlighten us. I apologize for sounding "brusque" here, that it not my intent. But you really do need to provide some explanation to back up statements like this.

_________________
....JBick

EX475, 2 GB, LE-1640
PC1: Vista-->W7 Ultimate/32, (D-Drive RAID-5 Array)
PC2: Lenovo Laptop, Win XP Home SP3
2xLinksys WRT54G v1.1 and 2xNetGear GS105 Gbit switch

Jim, I would certainly like to know if the restore of your C drive would work ok, but, honestly, if you have not already done that before, unless you are willing to do a Factory Reset, I would hold off on doing that. It could really mess the server up. I guess I thought you were saying you had done it already and it worked fine.

Sorry I misunderstood. I would NOT try the recovery from you backup, particluary if you have no backups of your share folders. You could lose all you data. If the only alternative you have (if the recovery does not work as you expect) is a Factory Reset, you WILL lose you data.

Please acknowledge you understand the chance you are taking before you try the recovery. I just don't know what would happen if you restore from you C drive backup.

As bruceleeon said, you could do some damage, none that would not be fixed by a Factory Reset, but you really don't want to do that if you can avoid it. If your share folders do not have any data in them now, I think it might be safe to try your test.

If bruceleeon can do a successful C drive restore using True Image, you may want to get some info from him as an alternative before doing your test if you have share folder data in your server and don't have a full backup of same.

Just to be clear, I was talking about your backup database files when I listed the three steps, not your C drive backup (much less a restore).

Sorry if I was unclear, but it should be clear now that I do not recommend you try a C drive recovery unless you meet these specific conditions:
1. Either you have no data in you share folders that you care about or you have a full copy of that data and don't mind haveing to copy it all back to the server.
2. You don't mind the possibility of having to do a Factory Reset.

I am not saying you would have to do a Factory Reset if you try to restore you C drive, but I would guess the changes are pretty good you WOULD have to.

Let me know what you decide, please.
George

Edit: I see when I tried to post this that JohnBick has posted. I am not trying to address any of John's comments here because it is very important that Jim sees this post as early as possible.

_________________
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
Aristotle - Greek critic, philosopher, physicist, & zoologist (384 BC - 322 BC)

I agree with you, John. I did not want to sound like I did not believe bruceleeon if he, in fact, had done a successful restore a few days or months later using True Image. I have come out with "egg on my face" for making statements of disbelief in my life before today. If he can give a definitive proof of this , I sure do want to read about how he did it.

I will sit back and let bruceleeon have a word now.
George

_________________
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
Aristotle - Greek critic, philosopher, physicist, & zoologist (384 BC - 322 BC)

There are three (philosophical) differences between this script and that in the initial post:

(1) This script needs to be maintained as new shares are defined. EITHER could be edited to select which shares to back up but this one does not default to include all.

(2) This script is intended to be run on a WHS server or on a client and it works very nicely either place. When run on a client it does, of course, depend on network transfers and the associated bandwidth limitations and potential errors that may occur. For a client version it adds additional complexity that is not needed but, as a one-time investment, that is not really a problem. It does, however, access the data through the Drive Extender logic.

(3) Without resorting to some other tricks this technique is not directly expandable to also backup the client Backup Database.

The script in the first post will, by default, backup the content of ALL shared folders, do it to a disk local to the WHS for maximum speed and also backup the client backup database. As the script only reads from the drive structure the bypass of the DE logic is not a problem.

_________________
....JBick

EX475, 2 GB, LE-1640
PC1: Vista-->W7 Ultimate/32, (D-Drive RAID-5 Array)
PC2: Lenovo Laptop, Win XP Home SP3
2xLinksys WRT54G v1.1 and 2xNetGear GS105 Gbit switch