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PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 10:10 am 
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Correct, using in those slots. As far as speeds I routinely see transfer speeds ranging from 40MB/s-100MB/s (hope I got the whole MB/s correct, always get that confused lol) so not one complaint on speeds :D

Honestly if I had to do again I would prob go with that Supermicro board over the one I got (I think Supermicro has better driver support, especially in terms of the Server O/S)

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 12:13 pm 
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The 3.0 slots should be backward compatible with 2.0 cards and even some of the 3.0 cards indicated they are backward compatible with 2.0. Like all things you should verify this to be the case with the stuff you use as it gets confusing.

As for hard drive controller cards if you go with cards like mine which are different then what Damian used previously they have SFF-8087 ports on them each supporting up to 4 drives and if you want to connect them directly to drives or if you use non-SFF-80887 backplanes then you would need an SFF-8087 Forward Breakout cable. This makes cable management somewhat neater and gets the job done. One the breakout cables they all look the same but are directional and are referred to as either Forward or Reverse depending on where the SFF-8087 cable is connected. If the SFF-8087 connection is at the control end and then to individual drives its FORWARD as already mentioned. If the SFF-8087 connection is on the backplane and you want to connect the 4 SATA Cables to say a controller or motherboard SATA ports then its REVERSE.

I see on average 70-120mbps on transfer speeds and it depends on what the server is doing at the time. Currently I stream directly off my server so the server is doing the transcoding which can at times be a heavy lift. To reduce this heavy lift I have been setting up other devices to take the transcoding task away from the server and just let the server deliver the content but that's an on going project I have yet to complete.

Damian is having issues getting RemoteWebAccess or RWA to work with his server and for me the issue was getting the VPN to work with 2 notebooks of which one works perfectly and another for some reason does not. I have played with Routers and one resolved the VPN issue totally but did not play well with my other network devices. Long story short is I have everything working right now but had to create a different VPN for the client giving me the issue. My issues are more self inflicted then others will experience because I run a mix of servers WHSv1, WHS2011 and WS2012E and I want Remote Access to all of them so I have added complexity to my situation and this can bot be done with all routers as some work better for this task then others but todate the only one which works perfectly is a Linksys WRT610N. If you want I can list all the different routers I have tried and will try one more but that will have to wait until I sort out whats going on with TZO and DYNdns (not sure if I got that name right) and figure out how it effects the DDNS settings in the router itself along with how well it plays with all my free sub-domains.

I only mention this stuff to help you form an opinion to help you chose a solution which will work best for your needs as what I have done may or may not be suitable for your needs. While Damian is using 4TB Seagate Drives and having good luck with them which I am happy to see I have opted to use 4TB Hitachi Deskstar Drives not the eco versions which are cheaper as I have had good luck with their 7200 RPM drives in the past so I chose to stick with what I have had good luck with. Point here is to keep an eye on who is using what drive and how they are working out for those individuals. If your comfort level is with one drive manufacturer then you already have an answer as to which drives to go with and if not then keep an eye on those who are running these newer large capacity drives. If mine start to fail I will be the first to post about it for sure. I installed my first two 4TB Hitachi's back on April 1st when I was still running WHS2011 on Highlander and recently I added two more.

The thing about these larger drives is that you do not need as many as you once did if you have lots of data storage needs so you can get by with fewer drives. In theory Highlander can support 32 drives but in reality I can only install more then 23 drives if I modify my enclosure and the max I have run in the past is 24 but today with the larger drives I was able to install 4 x 4TB Drives and reduce the drive compliment down from 24 drives to 20 drives resulting in some energy savings. As I change out my drives and repurpose my older drives I will actually have fewer drives running in the server and my storage pool is currently at 39.1TB which is better then if I had my server full of 2TB drives.

So as you spec out and build your server keep your data storage requirement needs in check and while its not bad to over build to give you some breathing room over time there comes a point where you may not need as much capacity as you once thought. Now if your going to get into virtualization then you may want a larger drive compliment and lots of memory but that's not an area I play in just yet.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 3:23 pm 
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Geez Comp,

Yeah, have to agree... you've got some self-inflicted issues there! Haha! Definitely more complex that I ever want to deal with! But these setups of ours don't get less complicated -do they, haha?!

I really appreciate the heads up about the breakout cables -as it happens I think I was aware of the need for/difference in the cables due to a previous post of... well, yours! So, thanks again! Funny that I didn't even know what a backplane or breakout cable was three weeks ago -and honestly, you used a couple of terms in that 4th paragraph I still need to look up, haha!

_____

So, Comp's post got me thinking. I PROBABLY don't really NEED a case that can accommodate 20 hard drives. I've currently got about 21 TB of space, and am only using about 14 TB -WITH duplication enabled for everything. That space requirement will obviously grow over the next few years... But makes me think a mid-tower option with space for 8-10 4TB 3.5 inch drives is a reasonable option -and there's plenty of cases to choose from... however...

I'm still trying to justify the larger case and 2nd controller card (sick in the head I guess -or maybe just don't want to go through this particular build for several more years!). Music and home videos/photos will probably grow at a predictable rate... BUT what if a couple of years from now I decide 1080p files are no longer good enough and start buying 4K movies (movie serving and/or transcoding is currently the most strenuous thing my server will need to do)? At that point my space requirements will increase significantly I imagine... But at that point I'd probably need to upgrade more than just my storage cards?! Ugh.

Too much to think about. I think maybe I'll adjust the build for a smaller case, maybe 8-10 internal drive spots, and just concentrate on getting it running smoothly... then in a few years if it's insufficient, but "working", the wife won't mind me upgrading some stuff?!

As for back planes, they sound wonderful and professional and convenient (depending on the case I guess), but if I went with a larger case and utilized them, I'm worried about them really just providing another level of hardware that could potentially fail/require troubleshooting... let me know if that's a silly concern!

As for hard drive choices, I might go with a mix of Hitachi like Comp's using and the Seagate drives like Damian's using... and could chip in my two cents around here if any start failing.

REALLY appreciate all the input y'all have provided... and always look forward to others' thoughts! Thanks!


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 11:20 am 
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Something else to stir the pot.
The end of the year they are talking about WD red 4-5 TB drives. The reason I mention this is I have that magic number of drives in my head for my data and I am basing it on these up coming drive sizes.
I will build with the around 8 drive number and that would include 1-2 of those being the OS in raid. so 6-7 storage. But that's me, I rip my movies down small 1.5 gig each +/- for quantity not quality. Some go the other way.
I would expect that 6-7 storage drives to last me a few years. 5 years is pushing it with hardware anyway In my mind.
Just a thought.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 4:04 pm 
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Very true... drive sizes are always increasing. And future upgrades won't be as big a pain if I'm not trying to do it all at one time like I am now... I'm leaning further and further toward just going with an 8 drive system...


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 4:55 pm 
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Just wanted to make a quick comment and that is the larger drives are not designed for the actual OS so these drives would be much smaller. Gardian is currently using a couple drives for RAID 1 Mirror for the OS and so in this nothing needs to change. If you also setup a backup of the OS even that drive would be 2TB or less. In this configuration 2-3 smaller drives would be used and then the remaining drives for Storage would be the larger drives.

As far as future proofing a server its important to determine your storage needs today and down the road but to also account for the possible need to grow the server beyond the initial need just incase your storage needs grow beyond your expectations and this is only something each individual can determine.

Most of this discussion has to do with the drives but there is another important factor and that is the amount for RAM one would need. I currently have 8GB installed and really that turned out to be overkill based on how I am currently using my server. However if you were to get into virtualization tasks 8GB may not be enough. This is an area I do not play in at this time so I would have to defer to others on how to setup and run virtualization and how to dedicate from to each virtualized task you setup on the server.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 9:12 am 
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So, Comp1962, if I understand correctly, I can use smaller drives for the OS and OS backup -probably utilize some of the damned non-JBODing mobo SATA ports! Smaller drives being 2TB and below, right? I've pegged an SSD for the OS, might get two for RAID 1, then could back it up to a spare 2TB or smaller drive I might have laying around, huh?

Thanks for making me think about storage needs, and I have been... If I use all 8 drives I get through the controller card for storage, and they're all 4TB drives, that'll give me (roughly) 32TB total, 16TB with duplication enabled. I'm using about 7TB now, and can't see it doubling for QUITE some time! But if larger 5 or even 6TB drives start coming out, it won't be hard to expand a pretty good bit -maybe with a new controller card? Regardless, my storage needs are relatively modest I guess -I've realized I simply don't have any need for 50-100TB of storage... hence a much smaller case, and just one controller card! So space should be okay, and I think I've got enough processing power to serve movies/pics/music, transcode/stream movies if I need to, maybe run Sickbeard, and hopefully some processing leftover to do anything that will come up over the next few years. But at the [now lower] cost for this build, if it works, I can justify significant improvements or a whole new build in a few years if necessary.

And, man, I don't even know what visualization is! But it sounds scary, haha! And frankly at this point I'm too lazy to Google it, haha! Hopefully it's not something I'll need -at least for a while!

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SO, adjusted my build... smaller Fractal mid-tower case, extra fans (five total -should keep those HDDs cool), slightly lesser motherboard, little less RAM, just one controller card (gonna try Damian's recommendation for the controller -settings in the OS sounded appealing), the money saved on the build will let me try out one of those new Harmony Ultimate remotes!


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 10:55 am 
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Yes smaller drives for the OS and OS Backup and the larger drives for your storage needs. SSD's are nice and addictive and not funny when one dies. I just sent out my first failed SSD and INTEL 330 Series 180GB Drive that I ran in my WHS2011 Server but failed when I decided to repurpose it for a new notebook. No biggie I should see the replacement in 2 weeks. All my other SSD's are running well but I think my Kingston V300 appears to be the best one I am running and its very affordable.

Just make sure that the motherboard you chose allows you expansion options should you find down the road you need to expand your storage capacity and you will be in good shape. Enclosures can be changed if you need to expand beyond the enclosures capacity but having some space in the enclosure is always nice too. I like the Modular PSU's because they reduce cable clutter as you only connect the cables you actually need but they cost more and not all enclosure have room for them.

On the CPU end of things the only thing I can think of these days is if you end up with a processor known to run hot where standard coolers are not enough to keep it cool and have to install a water cooled solution just make sure the enclosure can accommodate a water cooled system. Maybe you will not need one today but lets say you find a processor you want to upgrade to you may end up needing that. One the other side of the coin is I have an 8 Core FX Processor that is reported to run HOT but in all reality the way I am running it the OEM Heat Sink is working out well so I did not need a water cooled solution but my enclosure can accommodate a water cooled system. One key factor is the enclosure I am using has lots of air flow and space so keeping things cool is an easy task. Sometimes the smaller enclosures trap heat which is something you will want to avoid.

Now getting a Harmony Ultimate Remote I have no clue on that's Damien's territory but some of those remotes cost more then some builds so it you cut enough out of your build to fund it and the build works out well for you then your in very good shape. Also with drive prices falling you should be in even better shape.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 3:34 pm 
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For sure on the small OS drives and small drives for backing it and the clients up, I don't believe in letting clients have huge drives with lots of data, that is what the server is for so my clients don't take up much room, again maybe even external small drive to back them up..
Don't get me wrong, my clients can have all the data they want, they just need to keep as much as they can on the server where I can protect it.

Right now I am testing (2) OCZ 160 gig ssd in raid0 mirror, I would have gone smaller, but for the price and just in case. That way I could use a 500gig or 1tb drive, even external to backup the OS and save the room for Storage Drives, but I'm not really a OS backer upper, I would just reload it if something got past my raid.
The test rig I have has 2 gig ram and with the ssd's I don't notice it as lacking, but, I don't transcode or anything else with it. I have a HTPC that does all that and I think it has 8 gigs and win 7 64 bit.
For me the media server is more about lots-o-storage. The OS'es are disposable kinda, but not the storage.

Visualization is very cool, not used that much at home (I might regret that) :^o but even in some very small business environments it's almost a must now days.
Good Luck on your build, I love the smell of new parts :beerme:

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 5:41 pm 
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Gardian,

Maybe the term backing up the OS is a bad choice of words and it should be the system drive with all your server settings. Should something totally go wrong with your RAID1 setup you can turn to the Backup and use it to restore the server which provides an added level of redundancy. You can even make a single backup in WHS2011 but I have yet to look at WS2012E to do that but if you can then you can use an external drive to perform that task.

I actually copied your ICYDOCK in an MSS running WHS2011 and it was absolutely painless but I am not using SSD's in a RAID1 Array just yet. I have an OCZ Vertex 4 in my Desktop and in my notebook a Kingston V300 and I the Kingston drive appears to be out running my OCZ drive so I may opt to use those when I make the swap but I do like the ICYDOCK in the MSS that was a very cool idea on your part.

To provide redundancy for the client backups I am having Stablebit Drive Pool duplicate them. I know your using Storage Spaces which provides some options. I do keep some data on my clients that I am working on but on my notebook I rely heavily on the VPN connection to access my data since I have a small SSD but it occurred to me that if I am outside my network and have no internet connectivity that there is no access to my data so I now have a 1TB external drive I carry with me to house the data I will be working with.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 20, 2013 10:22 am 
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It's all about what works for you, 5 different families will have it setup 5 different ways. As longs as ya have room to grow and have fallback plans for when things go really bad, it's all good.
I also have a 2tb usb external drive that I keep images of all the os drives in the house, now these are base (when they first fired up and got all the basic stuff) images, so when I say I don't backup the os, I kindo do, just not in real time. "Which reminds me I should grab some fresher images here soon". Some want that os backed up every day and for them that just fine.
Enjoy
P.S. Yes, I am liking that Icydock raid, I wish I could take credit, but was one of the other guys in the threads that was looking for raid, but didn't want to lose 2 bays, really cool idea and so for solid.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 01, 2013 7:24 am 
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Alright. Finally got around to ordering the parts, and they've started to arrive. It's been scaled back considerably since everyone's made me think about what I really needed in the server -ie, I certainly don't need 20 hard drives or a case to accommodate all that (even if I want it, haha)! And after adding a couple of 4TB Seagate NAS drives, almost stayed within my original $1,500 budget.

ALSO, because I guess I never bothered to check, I had NO IDEA that Windows Server 2012 Essentials costs $400-$500... I guess I never buy sparkly new OSes and had no idea it could be that big a part of my budget. Sooooooo, after deciding not to sacrifice anything else on the build, I decided to stick with WHS 2011 and Stablebit for the time being. However, if this is a serious mistake for any particular reason, I'm happy to listen! I don't necessarily need the latest and greatest OS if WHS 2011 will play nice with my 4TB drives.

If anyone's interested I can post the parts I settled on and pics of the build as I get around to doing it over the next couple of weeks...


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 01, 2013 8:41 am 
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I was able to add 4TB Drives in WHS2011 running Stablebit Drive Pool no problem. Just do not try to install the OS on one of those 4TB Drives. Use a smaller drive for the OS, some prefer to set the OS Drive up in RAID 1 Mirror so you would need two small drives if you do this. WHS2011 also has an option to backup the OS Drive which is useful should you need to perform a recovery since it will use the backup drive to recovery your server from after you run the Server Install Disk. Some use a combination of both RAID 1 and a backup which something I did in a recent build just to give me something to do. Also you can create a single backup to an external drive.

I don't think your making a mistake I ran WHS2011 for a couple years and found it to be very reliable. I did migrate to WS2012E for some of the features it had to offer that WHS2011 did not have. Thing is that after I installed WS2012E and then Stablebit Drive pool it picked up my storage pool. I did have to recreate the shares and rename some of the WHS2011 files but all my data was accessible so if you chose to migrate to WS2012E later on the migration is a very simple process with Stablebit Drive Pool. Only thing I did when I installed WS2012E was back out my storage pool drives until I installed Stablebit Drive Pool. So its a win win situation.

Besides WHS2011 is dirt cheap and when it goes on sale I always pickup a couple of copies for builds. One thing about WHS2011 vs WS2012E is that it supports Win XP to Win8 where WS2012 only supports Win7 and Win8 so for client backups WHS2011 is more versatile.

:cheers: Good Luck with your build!!!!! :cheers:

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 01, 2013 8:47 am 
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Good to hear I'm not missing something serious with the OS!

Yeah, I've got an SSD for the OS, I'll definitely back it up, and will probably toss a second SSD in soon to do a RAID 1 with them. So, I'll have one SSD (for now) for the OS, then I'll have all the storage drives (8 of 'em) hooked up to the controller card (went with Damian's).

Thanks for the encouragement! I'm looking forward (read: hoping and praying) to a good stable server when I'm done!


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 01, 2013 11:39 pm 
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Just gather all the current drivers should you need then better to get them ahead of time then to find you need them and have to hunt them down. For the most part you shouldn't run into to many problems but the device drivers may come into play so just prepare for it. Basically set it up, configure everything and then copy your data to the server. One word of advise before you begin installing the client software is to make sure you remove any WHSv1 client software before installing the WHS2011 client software to avoid issues with installing the WHS2011 Client Software.

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~ AMD Phenom II X4 995 3.2 GHz
~ 8 GB Corsair Vengeance DDR3 1600 (PC3 12800)
~ 3 Supermicro AOC-SASLP-MV8


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