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 Post subject: Case Fan Controversy?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2019 1:29 pm 
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So I learned the hard way that the MSS doesn't like reversed fans. Surprisingly, CPU temps are higher with them setup to push back to front instead of pull front to back.

Same with the little flaps on the hard drive trays. If a drive tray is empty, cooling is more efficient with the flaps up, restricting air flow from the top half of the server & redirecting the draw flow to the motherboard area of the device. Installing hard drives has the same effect.

That got me thinking. Case fans are designed to either optimize CFM, optimize static pressure, or balance the two. Unfortunately, I couldn't find any baseline or specs info on the OE fan found in my ex49x (a 80mm AVC ds08025b12h) other than it's a 12v .3a.

Why does it matter? With a processor upgrade to one of the top line LGA775 processors, things start to get warm with a passive heatsink. So any guesses? Which style fan would better cool a MSS, pressure optimized or CFM optimized?

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Last edited by lioninstreet on Wed Oct 23, 2019 9:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 9:57 am 
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The purpose of a heatsink is to draw heat from the chip to a larger surface area, So the ambient air can dissipate the heat.
https://www.techopedia.com/definition/2211/heat-sink

With that said and the limited space on the motherboard.
I would say a higher circulation of air is needed.
Meaning find a replacement fan with the higher cfm. Or change the bios setting to ramp the fans up faster per temp increase.
Both of the options probably mean more noise.

And the bios settings for the fans are on two separate pages in bios.
One page you disable the defaults.
If you don't disable this all your fan settings will be lost when you reboot.
.
The other page is where you set the PID scale with gain.
Gain is the initial speed at boot which currently should be 100%
The others are Proportional which is the target minus the actual
The integral is the sum of the error over time just to bump it up a bit if Proportional does not meet target..
The Derivative is the opposite of Proportional somewhat to help from overshooting the target

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Last edited by Ruben Rocha on Tue Oct 29, 2019 8:51 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2019 7:46 pm 
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Hi Ruben,

Agreed, BIOS ramps are important given noise vs heat dissipation consideration. Thanks for the reminder about changing both MSS BIOS settings when playing around with this in BIOS.

Here's my thought. Thanks to HP's robust design, most of the MSS hardware in use today have lots of reliable powered up hours on them.

But speaking from experience, it's sure easy to overlook the case fans and I've had them die on me. With fans, you have two primary considerations, mechanical design & physical design.

Mechanically, there are a handful of setups. The bushing / bushing & single bearing designs, rated for between 30,000 and 50.000 hours (3.5 - 5.5 years) are at the low end. The other end of the spectrum are the double bearing / fluid dynamic / SSO / and mag lev designs. These are rated for up to 100k+ hours (10 - 12 years). I've never dissected the OE fan, but whatever design it is, unless you stumbled into a new old stock MSS in the past few years, your fans are pushing 10+ years of age.

So before your fans unknowingly die on you, a little preventative maintenance (ie fan replacement) is something to think about. Especially considering you need cool running HDD's to help extend their life (lower CPU temps don't hurt either). So if your gonna change 'em, you might as well upgrade 'em. And now we're back to the topic of this thread.

There are of course other mechanical considerations; brush or brushless, running amperage, start voltage and so forth, but for now we have enough to focus on.

Mechanical considerations aside, there is one main thing that should get a lot of attention but is typically not really considered. The physical blade design. Why? Some blades optimize Air Flow, others Static Pressure. And there's a big difference between the two.

Air Flow: This is the maximum amount of air moved by a fan when there is little or no resistance. Generally, airflow is more important for open no restriction applications such as drawing air out of the rear of most a computer cases. This style fan typically has fewer blades & large gaps between the fan blades when viewed head on.

Static Pressure: This is measured as the maximum pressure produced by a fan when this is maximum resistance and no air flow. High resistance applications like this are found in compact spaces, with circuit boards having many airflow blocking components, or when mounted directly on a CPU radiator or active heatsink. This style fan is characterized by more blades & very narrow spacing between the fan blades when viewed head on.

But all the above is just theory. So I'm thinking to compare the MSS case cooling of a CFM optimized fan design with a Static Pressure optimized fan. This would be pretty easy to do by load testing a hot running CPU (like a q9550s) with Prime 95 for about 10 minutes and compare. With any luck, running the fans on full on in BIOS would give me similar test RPM's. If not, Id have to play a bit with fan slope, but it could be done. I think it would be interesting to see if there's any cooling difference between the basic blade designs.

At the end of the day I'd be super happy if I could find a few degrees of improvement in running temps over the stock fans.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2019 8:41 am 
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The case fans as I recall are held with rubber feet .
Somewhere on this site is some info on replacing the two fans.
Could be a post or guide.
The issue I recall was finding a 4 wire(pwm) fan so it is variable speed with the the same size I think it was 80x80x25 to fit in the case.
.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2019 10:26 am 
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Ruben Rocha wrote:
The case fans as I recall are held with rubber feet .
Somewhere on this site is some info on replacing the two fans. Could be a post or guide.
The issue I recall was finding a 4 wire(pwm) fan so it is variable speed with the the same size I think it was 80x80x25 to fit in the case..

Swapping them out is EZ Peazy and finding 80mm PWM fans isn't too hard either. But getting the specs to compare the CFM & & Static Pressures is a bit more of a challenge. Some of the manufacturers only publish CFM...

I'll keep toying with this in my spare time. :beerme:

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2019 10:50 am 
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That is what I meant.
Trying to get specs such as cfm ,rpm, or static pressure is really hard to find.
So you don't have a way to compare them properly
Some post rpms but without cfm or scfm.
And you need that info to compare.
A fan with a lower rpm may have higher cfm and or static due to blade design.
Then again the higher rpm will compensate cfm but have higher amp requirements usually.
So that could overwhelm the psu.
I have no idea what the current limits are for the fans from the psu.

I did find one post here that states there is a pin out on the MB that is for a fan.
But they could not fit the fan they bought to fit inside so they just left the main door open and mounted it in front.
Probably need like a 20-10mm fan to fit inside.
They did not try a smaller fan due to they thought it would not help.

And the hard part in removing the fans is not to break the rubber standoffs. I have no idea where to buy one.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2019 11:37 am 
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I will say when needed I will try this fan first.
https://www.newegg.com/silverstone-fw81 ... D&bc_lid=6
I have it in a home pc build and it is extremely quite.
It is close to oem also the rubber pins may work
https://www.silverstonetek.com/product. ... 13&area=en

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2019 8:25 pm 
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That Silverstone looks nice. It's gonna be hard to compare it to some of the other brands like Noctua, Noisblocker, Artic, Coollink (I'm sure I left out at least a half dozen). This because the airflow and pressure specs show fan speed at 3000 RPM while typical is closer to 2000 RPM.

Bummer is that it uses a sleeve bearing rated for 40,000 hours.

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