In the beginning of May I posted about new firmware updates that were coming to the Popcorn Hour C-200/A-200 that would hopefully fix some nagging issues I encountered when reviewing the players. Well, a few days ago the first beta of the new firmware was released for testing. As a beta tester I downloaded the beta firmware last night to give it a whirl. The particular features/fixes I was specifically looking to test out were as follows:
- HD Audio bitstreaming (DTS-MA and TrueHD) from standalone mkv/m2ts files
- Fixed playback issues of VC-1 mkvs
- PGS Subtitle support in mkvs (i.e MakeMKV)
Test # 1 – HD Audio Bitstreamaing:
This is probably the biggest feature I was looking forward to testing out, and I am happy to report it worked as advertised. I tested standalone mkv and (m2)ts files containing both DTS(MA) and TrueHD audio tracks, and in all cases the PCH C-200 successfully passed through the HD Audio to my Onkyo receiver.
mkv with DTS(MA) audio track (you may have to click on the picture to see the Receiver lights)
mkv with TrueHD audio track (you may have to click on the picture to see the Receiver lights)
Test # 2 – Proper VC-1 mkv playback:
One annoying bug with the original PCH firmware is that mkvs with VC-1 Video did not play properly. I decided to test out Harry Potter And The Half-Blood Prince, which the Video codec is VC-1. I am happy to report that the mkv played flawless (see screenshot below showing snapshot of movie playing with details). Funny enough, I was watching Harry Potter on my laptop when I was traveling in London and the scene below looked very familiar. Turns out there was a reason for that, as the screenshot below shows St. Paul’s Cathedral and the Millennium Bridge (i.e. Wobbly Bridge) which was right next to the hotel I was staying at!
Test # 3 – PGS Subtitle Support In mkv:
PGS Subtitles are the subtitle format used in Blu Ray movies. Unfortunately most players/software do not support PGS subtitles in mkvs, so converting the PGS subtitles to another format (such as idx/sub) is needed to get proper playback. MakeMKV is the only software out there right now that actually supports adding PGS subtitles into mkvs, however since most players don’t support PGS subtitles in mkvs, the user is left with with an mkv with unusable subtitles. I expect that as time goes on PGS Subtitle support in mkvs will become common, and great news for MakeMKV users is that I confirmed that the new PCH firmware supports PGS subtitles in mkvs. The screenshot below shows District 9 created with MakeMKV and showing the forced PGS subtitles.
Final Thoughts:
As a reminder, this new firmware is still in beta so there may be some new bugs introduced or fixes still not implemented. I did note that my Avatar Blu Ray disc would not play back properly. Also there was some stuttering issues with high bitrate movies over smb which I did not have problems with prior to the beta firmware update (switching to NFS or HTTP fixed the problem). One remaining issue I hope to see resolved soon (and from chatting on the NMT forums appears to be high priority) is support for hi resolution (i.e. 1080p) IDX/SUB subtitles in mkvs. Overall the beta firmware based on the new Sigma SDK addresses a lot of issues and moves towards making the PCH a more complete player. I expect it will be at least another couple weeks of testing and updated beta/release candidate firmwares before the firmware is considered stable enough for general release.
Several people have asked me if I plan on updating my reviews to reflect some of the new fixes. Once the firmware is released to the public I will update accordingly.
A full list of the release notes for the beta firmware can be seen below:
<code></p> <p style="text-align: left;"><code>1. New NMT apps 02-03-100427-21-POP-408 2. BD/AVCHD/DVD/CDDA - Fixed playback of BD-J disc in SD TV mode - Fixed BD ISO playback cannot display external subtitles (Bug #5000593) - Fixed BD playback with external freeze at end of movie (Bug #5000596) - now able to playback some BD titles e.g. Pirate of Carribean, Avatar - BD playback - Load subtitle index.srt (case sensitive) in BDMV folder by default 3. Video Photo and Audio playback - HD aduio passthru support for file playback (SimpleBD, m2ts, ts and mkv) - Fixed certain Arabic subtitle failed to display - Fixed failure to playback some AVI which contain ID3 (aoe-cop.avi) - Fixed frequent press of Enter key at start of audio file playback occasional cause system failure - Fixed slideshow failed via Picasa if the album has more than 700 photos (Bug #5000535) - Fixed incorrect photo played randomly when play a single photo (pressing Enter) via myiHome (Bug #5000535) - Fixed MKV issues related to makemkv 4. UPNP-AV - Fixed remote renderer (EyeCon etc) cannot set pause, mute, volume up/down - Fixed discovered devices disappear when certain UPnP device is attached to network - Swisscenter Simple Media Server (SIME); reduce waiting time of change track. - PlayOn UPnP server; fix streaming issue. 5. PHF - Fixed old shoutcast menu could not pop up - "Standby" by pressing Power key - Fixed Return key not working 6. System - Fixed "purple splash" during system bootup - Fixed failure to go to enter Media Source screen after setting TCP Receive Window to "auto" - Wifi card driver Update 7. NMT Apps - Fixed NMT Setup unable to perform fresh setup on new harddisk with no partition</code></p> <p style="text-align: left;"></code>
{ 61 comments }
This looks very promising although I must question why this new beta is on the old UI when the flash UI looks toe seriously overdue.
@ Jason,
Hopefully now that they are using the new SDK the new Flash UI shouldn’t be too far behind. I would say fixing some of the major bugs (i.e. VC1 playback and HD audio bitstreaming) would be of the highest priority
Does this upgrade get it closer to an HTPC replacement for you?
@ ScottAP,
The bitstreaming issue was big for me since I have been bitstreaming from my HTPCs for some time, so in that regard it does get me closer. I would need to see all network performance issues resolved for good and I still feel like it requires too much work to get a flexible/feature rich UI. For example, with an HTPC I can install XBMC, MyMovies, MediaBrowser, etc… get them up and running, switch views, and switch features very easily. Setting up YAMJ + Aeon for the PCH required way too much work and to be honest I am afraid to even touch it knowing something will break (plus you are locked in to one view).
Getting closer to an HTPC yes, but IMO an HTPC still offers the ultimate/most flexible experience.
Yes, the whole thing is just rather irritating. HTPCs with XBMC have their own issues, but it does seem that they are going to close the gap with Popcorn Hour sooner rather than later.
Syabas knows this, hence the long overdue Flash UI update which will add more capabilities and of course Popbox which will allow for 3rd party snap-in applications.
I like my A200 and am hesitant to shell out for a Zotac or Aspire PC just to run XBMC but as of late I feel that Syabas have seriously been fumbling the ball.
@ JASON
Totally agree. I have a PopBox on order at Amazon, and am real close just to cancelling it. My A-200 and A-1110 are just not consistent. Mainly built my home server just for that, streaming videos and music. An HTPC is probably better for me.
Well, HTPC of course has its own long list of problems. XBMC also has issues, such as issues with forced subs support not working, no DTS-MA support, etc.
I have a few writeups on XBMC which I should hopefully have posted in the coming days
Now granted I am not a power PCH user (my C-200 is in my sons playroom and my A200/A110 I use more as a backup or for testing), but I have had very little problems with the C200. I have watched several movies (Blu Ray rips) without issue (I go into the playroom at times to hide from the family!!!). I think the biggest problem is Sigma, as it appears there were a lot of bugs that required Sigma to fix and not Syabas. I am hopeful that now that a brand new SDK got released Syabas can resolve and remaining issues and really bring these players to the next level.
@ Jason,
I have DTS-MA and TrueHD bitstreaming working with XBMC (using an external player and an internal one)
@ Damian
Just installed XBMC. Finally got it working with metadata. Mapped to Server with no issues. Plays videos across the network without any freezing or stuttering. I guess I can now say it is not my server. Thought maybe the Samsung drive I had installed was slow. So far I like it. Just to not have HD videos freezing and locking up is Very nice.
@ Rhinoevans,
Sorry to hear you have been having issues with your PCH. On the PCH do you have it set to Auto or 10/100? Also, are you trying to play back via SMB, NFS, or HTTP?
Agreed, with an HTPC I honestly never encounter stuttering issues. Everything just plays.
Damian,
There’s something else you might want to check as far as bug reports go. See if when skipping a chapter on an AVC MKV file if it skips the chapter but actually winds up showing you the last second or two of the previous chapter.
Also, do chapter skips in VC1 MKVs now consistently skip chapters without the video freezing up. About 1 out of 5 times when I skip a chapter in a VC1 MKV the video will freeze up but audio continues playback.
“….Also, do chapter skips in VC1 MKVs now consistently skip chapters without the video freezing up. About 1 out of 5 times when I skip a chapter in a VC1 MKV the video will freeze up but audio continues playback……”
This comment was most germane re: VC-1 encoded MKVs. If that’s been addressed..PERFECT. Will not have to use TSMuxer on any BD, limiting BD MakeMKV rips to .H264 encoded discs.
..
@ Jason/Phil,
I just tested two VC1 mkvs and had no issues skipping forward and back between chapters. I never had video freeze and never had audio sync issues.
Damian, that is EXCELLENT news. Thank you for the update !
Damian, can you speculate WHEN this firmware will be available to the general public….3 great fixes/upgrades ! I look forward to this even more than the flash GUI as I currently use a very reliable YAMJ frontend.
@ Phil,
Generally it took about 1-2 months to go from beta to public release I have found. However, since this is the first fw from the new SDK I imagine it may take a little bit longer. Usually the fw goes from beta to RC then to public. This FW has not gone to RC yet so I magine we are still weeks away (of course just speculating here). So far stick with YAMJ as the new Flash UI/jukebox hasn’t gotten good feedback yet
mkvmerge 4.1.0 supports PGS in MKV now, too
@ FLaSH,
Correct, I had done a quick writeup regarding – http://www.mediasmartserver.net/2010/06/24/mkvmania-%E2%80%93-displaying-pgs-subtitles-in-mkvs-using-mpc/
With more support for PGS subs in mkvs there will probably be no need to use IDX/SUB subtitles going forward (especially since the PCH does not support any of these over 480p). Hopefully Syabas will work the kinks out of the new firmware soon and release it to the public
Damian,
Do you know if PCH is going to support the higher resolution IDX/SUB files? Now that mkvmerge supports PGS subs the obvious thing to do is simply re-rip my entire collection, but seeing as that’s over 100 blu-ray discs and I have other things to do it would be a tragedy if Syabas will add this much needed support at some point.
When I spoke with Syabas they said adding hi res IDX/SUB support in mkvs was high priority on their list. So based on that I believe they will add. I don’t know when but it would be nice to see it added before the next public fw release. Of course I will report back if I see it added in any beta fws.
Ok quick question. Used to follow these things all day long but fell out of it to pursue other geek related projects. If I wanted a simple set-top box to stream media from my WHS … and pretty much nothing else. What is the best box out today for my setup? C-200, A-200, popbox, boxee, ??
I do have Blu-ray/DVD mix (MKV all) and am using some DTS-MA/TrueHD on some movies that DON’T have a secondary track on them … My assumption is that these boxes won’t “downgrade” the quality of these HD-audio types if it it not supported, but simply not play them at all (correct?). Thanks in advance!
The requirement to transcode or pass the HD audio track is going to prevent most machines from doing what you want.
You would need to have an AC3 track available in your .mkv for the PCH players to currently do what you want assuming the True-HD or DTS-MA track is the only one available on the disc.
Hopefully the next firmware from Syabas will address this and make a lot of us very happy (finally).
The Dune 3.0 player is one of the only ones out that can currently deal with HD audio tracks in .mkv files without issues.
@ Jason(s),
The PCH will downmix TrueHD/DTS(MA) to stereo/core, so you WILL get sound. Most players now support downmixing so you don’t need a secondary audio track (I still have a SageTV HD200 which does not downmix which is the reason why I chose to add a secondary AC3 track). My PCH C200 is connected directly to a tv in my sons playroom and I have no issues with audio not playing from DTSMA and TrueHD mkvs
As far as what player to choose, Boxee Box from what I have heard will have limitations on the max bitrate file it can play back (so rule out BR rips). The Popbox seems promising but since it has not been released yet who really knows. The PCH C200/A200 has gotten more stable, and bitstreaming HD Audio from mkvs works with the latest fw. Hopefully though once the fw moves out of beta and to the general public it will fix a lot of issues.
As far as the Dune, I have never tested one but do have a review unit being sent to me in the coming days, so be on the look out
I should also add that another excellent option would be the SageTV IF they ever release a new/updated version. The current HD200 is outdated and has too many limitations for my taste, but an HD300 based on the new hardware/chip with bitstreaming support I think could really shake things up
@Damian
Yes, now that I think about it you are right about the downmix and extract of DTS from DTS-MA but I don’t think I’ve gotten a True-HD audio track to play properly at least on the older firmware version I am forced to run to fix the breakages in the current firmware with VC1 playback from .mkv.
I will test again later if I have a chance.
The sad thing here really is that the PCH players are very close to being the best inexpensive media players out there that can deal with Blu-ray but are currently being held up by a variety of issues such as the poor heat/chassis design of the A200, lack of lossless audio, subtitle breaks/issues and general instability.
If they can get these things licked then definitely a $179 PCH A200 box would be an excellent choice for anyone that doesn’t want to mess around with the expense and trouble of going with a full blown HTPC solution running either XBMC or WMC.
@ Jason,
I know I have tested the latest Harry Potter which is a VC1 mkv w/ TrueHD and it played without issue connected directly to my tv. It does have a secondary AC3 audio track but the only way the PCH would use that track was if you actually told it to (which I don’t since the PCH downmixes). I will try and reconfirm though when I get home later, my 3 yr old son found the game cube in his playroom so he has been hogging the tv that the C200 is connected to!
I agree regarding your sentiments on the PCH players. The A200 design is a head scratcher, and what seems to have hurt them the most was waiting for the new SDK from Sigma. I am fairly confident that with the new SDK now out in the coming months all the major PCH issues should be resolved (HD Audio support for standalones will be added when the fx goes public which will be huge for a lot of people, PGS subtitle support, improved smb performance, and hopefully hi res IDX/SUB support)
Ok guys thanks for the info … looks like it’s back into my shell until the next set of releases …
Damian, just noticed the C200 Beta 3 firmware was released July 16….with an apparently short list of ‘fix’ issues. Are we close? (to the release candidate). And…what’s been your observations up through this most recent release? Stable?
@ Phil,
There was a Beta 2 released and then the Beta 3 was released right after (my guess a few fixes that were missing from Beta 2). From what I read online it appears that Syabas is trying to speed up the process so they can get the fw out to the public. I am think we should possibly see a Release Candidate in the next 1-2 weeks, and then probably another week or so before made public. So for the beta fw has been stable for me. The only thing that broke initially was smb performance dropped, but that appears to have been fixed.
Damian, once again, thank you for the blazingly fast response. At this point my A200 has been exceptionally reliable and consistent. All my MKVs are streamed from a WHS on a Cat-6 network. I can’t remember when I last had any stutter/slowdown. I only recently acquired a pre-pro that included the latest HD audio codecs; accordingly, I’ve been ripping to MKVs my latest BDs with the HD audio intact as an additional track. ….obviously, really looking forward to this firmware release.
No problem, I am actually off this week and should be updating Quicken/bills but get easily distracted lol!!! Hopefully within the next few weeks or so we will be talking about how well mkv bitstreaming works!
I hope the popbox problems are not slowing the release of the C200 new firmware. I don’t know why Sybas is so slow on this firmware since it is tested for 2.5 months now on the other hand they cranking out daily firmware(s) for the popbox.
BTW. I am looking forward for your Dune review, I am hoping to see some Dune vs. c200 (with beta3 firmware) comparison.
Ken
I also would love a review of the Dune vs c200 … I’m currently torn.
@ Ken,
I know the Syabas guys seemed to be trying to speed up the fw release from beta to public. I agree it was taken a while, possibly longer then it should have. I don’t know if the same group that works on the PCH fw also works on the Popbox fw as it seems Syabas is really trying to separate the PCHs from the Popbox. I think the Popbox fw release schedule is more a factor of the disaster that occurred at release. After all, releasing constant fw updates may not be a good sign.
I have all my pictures downloaded and just about done with my testing of the Dune, so just gotta get my thoughts down on paper. Still targeting early next week (hopefully no later then tuesday) to have my review posted, so keep checking back.
Does RC1 finally include support for 1080P idx subs or did that feature not make the cut?
@ Jason,
It didn’t make the cut. Supposedly they are hoping to release the new fw to the public this upcoming week.
Well. That sucks.
Yeah, unfortunately I have yet to see any media player support hi res IDX/SUB subtitles. Now that it seems like PGS support is growing for mkvs I have a feeling it will be hard pressed to get any support for hi res IDX/SUB (the only reason previously to use hi res IDX/SUB subtitles is because the PGS subtitles were not supported)
Ya, I’m just not relishing re-ripping or re-muxxing the hundred plus discs I’ve already built with high resolution IDX subtitles.
Since Plex, XBMC and Boxee have no issue with them I foolishly assumed other media players would get on board sooner rather than later.
Yeah, I hear ya. Fortunately for me I only use forced subs, so I would say that is a very small portion of my collection, and even those I stuck with 480p subs. At some point I may go back and move to all PGS. Best thing to do is keep pressuring these companies to add 1080p support, I have mentioned several times on the NMT threads and from I have been told it is a high priority but something I think Sigma needs to fix in the SDK.
Actually there is one other thing. Currently if you enable subtitles and have a high resolution IDX/SUB file it will actually crash the media playback. Is this at least fixed?
If not, then to turn subtitles on and enjoy the new PGS feature I will have to remove subs (or convert them to PGS) for all of my BD titles.
@ Jason,
If I recall Hi Res subtitles didn’t cause my C-200 to crash, I would just not get an option to even display the subtitle (so it seems as if the subtitle track would get killed right at the start)
Is there really a difference between srt subtitles and Pgs regarding quality? All my MKVs have embedded srt subtitles. If Pgs is better then I would consider remuxing it all to PGS after the FW comes out
To be honest not sure as I have never used srt subtitles. My guess PGS subtitles would have the best quality as they are 1080p subtitles in the Blu Rays. I don’t know what resolution the srt comes in at but I would think it would not be hi resolution
@ Damian
Thanks! Just a question though. Is this PGS the same as S_VOBSUB format?
VOBSUB is IDX/SUB, the typical subtitle format for DVDs. PGS is SUP, which is the typical format of BluRays
Well, Damian does RC2 look/ feel solid? Suitable for the hoi poloi this week?
Just tested yesterday, as usual no problems updating, no problems playing. The one item I confirmed fixed is the RC2 has a patch that allows for playback of mkvs with header compression. Starting with mkvmerge 4.2 header compression was enabled by default. Unfortunately not many players were compatible with this. So for example, using the RC1 FW when I played an mkv with header compression it would not play. Once i updated to RC2 the mkv played without issue.
Damian,
I’ve heard the new beta fw (RC1 & RC2) you tested for the C200 does allow for bitstreaming from standalone mkv/m2ts, but from what you know when the official new fw will be released to the public?
Do I need to buy one now and upgrade fw later or wait…?
Thanks.
They are hoping to push out the public fw within a week for the C200 (and my guess add an extra week for the A200)
Damian, with this morning’s announcement of a RC 4 (!), is the issue audio issues, i.e. problematic locking onto the HD audio stream? Have you personally encountered these anamolies?
Well, RC4 was just released. I downloaded it but have yet to install. I hadn’t noticed any issues with RC3 on my side, but I only got a chance to watch a few movies with it. Supposedly the RC4 will be the version that goes to the public and I haven’t read about any serious issues so far
Damian..anxiously awaiting (hopefully Monday or Tuesday) the A-200 firmware release. Am a bit puzzled about various people’s remarks about still encountering problems with VC-1 encoded rips?..the C-200 August 26 release (although that MAY have to do with the 24 fps issue). You said you had no problems…
Comment…?
If it is 24fps related I wouldn’t know as I have never used the 24fps setting. I have not experienced any problems with VC-1 mkv for a while now (since I have been using the beta fw for a while).
thank you for the fast response. Like you, I don’t use the 24 fps setting. (hoping that’s their problem)
Do you think the A-200 F/W might be release tomorrow?
It has been close to two weeks so I expect it should be any day now
Damian, I’ll just quote my posting from the A-200 I just posted:
“…D/Led this A-200 firmware a couple of hours ago. Great success…my 3 primary feature upgrades were realized. VC-1 encoded MKVs play fine. Subtitles in MKV…excellent. Single file HD Audio playback….perfect.
The only complaint I have (which was noted in the C-200 F/W thread): Their Bookmark engine must be fixed/ replaced…does not work.
But, all-in-all, great progress (P.S. not a hint of any HDMI handshaking problems…..I tested over 25 movies) …”
Have you experienced/tested the bookmark issue..?
Hey Phil,
I am hoping to get my A200 updated either tonight and tomorrow so I can test further. I honestly have never tested bookmarks before but I will give it a shot. Glad to hear everything is in much better shape, feeling better about purchasing the A200?
Hi! I was never ‘unhappy’ with my unit (purchased Feb 10). It never failed..did everything I asked it to,i.e. stream my 326 movies from my 10 TB WHS. The three features I enumerated (which you had pointed out in your June Beta review) were icing on the cake. Previously, if BDInfo recognized the movie as a VC-1 encode I just used TSMuxer. But the single file HD audio and flawless VC-1 playback are great!
However, the one feature I use a lot (previously flawless)…bookmark/resumes is definitely broken…a real nuisance! In testing over 35 movies so far it’ll work maybe 2 out of 5 times. Give it a shot yourself…you’ll see. A nice new bookmark “engine” via a patch should fix that up….I hope in less than 3 mos !!!
Let me know your experience in the next couple of days..
-Phil
Damian..just an clarification of my previous comment “…bookmark/resumes is definitely broken…a real nuisance! In testing over 35 movies so far it’ll work maybe 2 out of 5 times. Give it a shot yourself…you’ll see….”
MKVs only. Bookmark/Resume works with .TS files (doesn’t help me …90% of my movies are MKV)